The Further Up, Further In Podcast
The Further Up, Further In Podcast exists to call the American Church out of the shallows, and into the deeper waters of the faith, and to invite each listener to pursue a deeper walk with Christ.
Episodes

4 days ago
4 days ago
36 min
In this final installment of my conersation with Mark Bertrand about wisdom and the importance of pursuing wisdom we talk about his call to and work in pastoral ministry and seek to connect pursuing wisdom to pursuing depth in the Christian life.

Aug 16, 2026
Aug 16, 2026
39 min
In this third part of my conversation with Mark Bertrand about the importance of wisdom and pursuing wisdom for the Christian life, we discuss among other things, 5 lessons about wisdom we can learn from the siege and fall of Constantinople in 1453.

Aug 9, 2026
Aug 9, 2026
38 min
This is the second part of my interview with Mark Bertrand on the essential importance of wisdom and pursuing wisdom for the Christian life. We pick up where we left off last time and discuss how wisdom is not what you think it is.

Aug 2, 2026
Aug 2, 2026
34 min
This episode is the first of four parts in which I interview J. Mark Bertrand, author of Rethinking Worldview, and we discuss the essential importance of wisdom and pursuing wisdom for the Christian life.

Jul 26, 2026
Jul 26, 2026
45 min
Jason and I follow up on my conversation with Daryl Madi about Church Hurt, talking further about the importance of being connected to a church even while acknowledging the reality of her imperfection.

Jul 19, 2026
Jul 19, 2026
34 min
This is the final installment of my conversation with Daryl Madi about Church Hurt, and as we acknowledge the failings of the institutional church, we also acknowledge Christ's love for her and our place in her midst.

Jul 12, 2026
Jul 12, 2026
35 min
This is part 2 of my conversation with Pastor Daryl Madi about church hurt, where we continue to discuss the church, the need for accountability in the church, and also our need of the church.

Jul 5, 2026
Jul 5, 2026
32 min
This is part one of my conversation with my friend, Pastor Daryl Madi, on the subject of 'Church Hurt,' as we talk about the varieties of things that can be referred to by that name and examine both the flaws of the institutional church and our need of it.

Jun 28, 2026
Jun 28, 2026
48 min
Jason Van Bemmel joins me to talk, not just about science and faith and the questions of origins that so often divide us, but about disagreement and conflict in the church, and how we can distinguish between primary, secondary and tertiary differences when we find that we do disagree.

Jun 21, 2026
Jun 21, 2026
36 min
In this episode we talk about three different positions Christians take on the question of origins, not to advocate for any one of them but to better understand them, their appeal, their challenges, and talk about how they interact with the early chapters of Genesis.





